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Articles
1992 - Interview With Margaret Bartlett's Cousin and Lifelong Friend by John M. Jones, Jr.
Phinney Reflects on Lifelong Relationship with Patterson Family
By John M. Jones Jr. - Editor, The Greeneville Sun
Originally published in The Greeneville Sun on August 4, 1992
The Greeneville Sun spoke Sunday with Ralph M. Finney, 97, a first cousin of the late Margaret Johnson Patterson Bartlett and her closest surviving relative.
Phinney, a native of Jonesborough, left East Tennessee with his family when he was six years old. But he often spent part of his childhood summers in Greeneville, and actually lived with Mrs. Bartlett's family for 18 years.
He was a close friend of Mrs. Bartlett for more than 75 years and her legal guardian for the last seven, since 1985.
In this interview, he reflected on his long relationship with her and what he sees as her contribution to perpetuating the legacy of President Andrew Johnson, her great-grandfather.
Asked about his own supporting role in her efforts, he also discussed that subject, and its meaning in his life.
And he offered some insights on President Andrew Johnson himself that Phinney said he learned from his very close association over many years with Mrs. Bartlett's family, and particularly with her father, Andrew Johnson Patterson.
Patterson, a grandson of the president who was a child during the Johnson presidency, lived in the White House during those years.
The interview, which has been edited somewhat, was conducted at the Sun on Sunday afternoon, August 2, by Editor John M. Jones Jr.
Sun: How long have you known Margaret Bartlett?
Phinney: I've known Margaret since birth. I was present here the summer of 1903 on vacation from school. I was eight years old, and I was here when Margaret was born.
Sun: When you were growing up, did you know her very well?
Phinney: I knew Margaret quite well all of her life. I used to spend a part of my summer vacations here pretty regularly between the ages of 7 and let's say 15.
When my family moved from East Tennessee, of course - I was at that time eight years old and Margaret had just been born - it so happened that I was here on a few weeks' vacation at the age of 8. Margaret was born in 1903. I was born in 1895.
Sun: She was actually born in the Homestead, was she not?
Phinney: That's right.
Sun: She, I guess, grew up in the Homestead, and you say that you would come here in the summer part of the time. Where were you living at the time?
Phinney: My father being a railroad man, we lived pretty much all over the Southeast. We went from East Tennessee to Columbia, South Carolina, from there to Birmingham, from there to Richmond, from there to Savannah, Georgia.
Then when I went to high school and worked usually for my father in summer vacation, why I didn't see so much of Margaret, very little of Margaret, but we nearly always spent Christmas together.
Sun: Your personal connection here, as I understand it, was through Mrs. Bartlett's family. Is that right?
Phinney: Right.
Sun: At what period of your life did you personally move back to Greeneville?
Phinney: When I graduated from school, I had majored in electrical engineering. I went with the American Tel Tel Co. in the Signal Corps, and enlisted in the Army in the American Tel Signal Battalion in late 1918. Later on I went to an officer's training camp, and when I was commissioned, I was commissioned into the infantry, so I left the Signal Corps.
When I came back to the telephone company in late 1919, I was in the engineering department in the Southeastern Division located in Atlanta.
But in the fall of 1919 I came to Greeneville for the first time after World War I, and I became acquainted with a business proposition here that looked real good.
It looked better than a salaried job with the telephone company at that day and age, and within a month's time, why I was here in business with a pretty good sized franchise in Upper East Tennessee, Western North Carolina, and Southwest Virginia on Delcolite products - farm lighting, rural electrification.
Sun: That was in the fall of 1919?
Phinney: Yes.
Sun: After you moved back to Greeneville in 1919...
Phinney: 1920.
Sun: After you moved back here in 1920, were you closely associated with Mrs. Bartlett and her family?
Phinney: I lived in the Patterson home for 18 years.
Sun: In the Andrew Johnson Homestead?
Phinney: Yes, in the Andrew Johnson Homestead. Let me put it this way: My aunt said that I might have a room in the house, but she would not board me.
Sun: In other words, you slept there but you didn't eat there. Is that it?
Phinney: That's right.
Sun: Were you involved at all in the efforts of Mrs. Patterson and her daughter, Margaret, to try to get a national monument established here for Andrew Johnson?
Phinney: I was involved to the extent that I contributed a great deal of help not as a major or leading supporter other than that I handled a great deal of correspondence for her.
I could use a typewriter pretty well, and, as a matter of fact, I contributed, I might say, reams of letters. I also oftentimes would go along with them on trips. Margaret drove some.
I have been to Washington with them a few times and to Johnson City when we were working with Carroll Reece, and Congressman Reece was working hard toward getting the legislation to buy the Homestead here. I was present most of the time at our interviews with him.
Sun: How would you yourself characterize Mrs. Bartlett's contribution?
Phinney: Margaret's contribution to the honor and the recognition of her great-grandfather was 100 percent. In fact, if a person had a hobby, that was her hobby - that was her goal in life.
She had some other interests and so forth, but it was uppermost in her mind, especially following her father's death, because she allowed her father to take the lead up until the time of his death in 1932.
Sun: Was her mother the leader of the effort after her father died, or was Mrs. Bartlett the leader at that point?
Phinney: Well, they worked as a team. They worked as a team, and it (the task itself) was difficult.
Andrew Patterson himself had well established that fact before his death, realizing that he could not get a grain of support (or) interest in the local ownership of the Andrew Johnson Home and surroundings the entire property and the real estate.
But he had left the more or less challenge, you might call it, with his wife and daughter. It was his wishes, and that, of course, spurred them on to pick up the torch and carry on with it.
He died in '32, and the legislation was passed in '41.
Sun: Do you think that Mrs. Bartlett felt that her life's work had been achieved?
Phinney: Yes, I would say that, fortunately, the crowning jewel of all of her life's work was the establishment of the Andrew Johnson National Historic Site - the Homestead, the Andrew Johnson National Cemetery and the Tailor Shop.
She was often reminded, however, that this was not altogether an Andrew Johnson base, or home, that had too much appreciation for her great-grandfather.
Sun: Did she feel even in her later years that Andrew Johnson was not being given the recognition that he deserved?
Phinney: I would say yes.
Sun: Did she enjoy her work at the Homestead after the national historic site was established?
Phinney: Immensely. She enjoyed it. She enjoyed it because she - this might not be historically correct, but it would be difficult to name another direct descendant, especially as close as a great-granddaughter, who was a hostess in her great-grandfather's home and talked to and entertained guests in a home in which she herself had been born.
Sun: Is there anything else that you would like to add about Mrs. Bartlett and her contribution to the history of the United States or to the present strength of that national historic site?
Phinney: The devotion not only to her great-grandfather but to do all that she could to give him the recognition that she felt he was deserved, all of which was prompted, of course, by her father and her mother - it so dominates any other interest and work and activity that Margaret had that I would say almost that it would be difficult to draw a comparison from anything else that could identify Margaret's character.
Sun: Did you ever feel that her character, personality, and so forth were similar to what you know of her great-grandfather's personality and character?
Phinney: It was often said that Margaret had a profile or countenance that suggested, or certainly was not unlike, that of her great-grandfather, and from what we know of history, she did have a very, very strong will, and oftentimes (she was) critical and didn't fail to express herself.
Probably, Margaret, I might say, was a little blunt, and so was Andrew Johnson. And at the expense possibly of incurring a bit of dislike or lack of favoritism, why she didn't hesitate to speak her mind.
Sun: You personally have had a substantial supporting role in the effort to see the legacy of Andrew Johnson recognized here. Does your own personal role in this effort give you satisfaction?
Phinney: Well, to a degree. We can't help but notice that, when I came here in 1920, I don't believe there had been more than one or two biographies written of Andrew Johnson.
Today I would say that possibly a minimum of 25. And that, of course, cannot be overlooked when we think of Andrew Johnson gaining in popularity or in, let's say, vindication of some of the things with which he was charged as a president.
I must add this. Due to the fact that I lived close to the family here for many, many years, I learned a lot from Andrew Johnson Patterson, the grandson. I learned a lot about the Johnson family.
Andrew Johnson himself, if you wanted to pick out one word that would characterize him, that appeared in almost all of his home life - domestic life - it would be "simplicity."
The home today as it's shown to the public often gets the comment from visitors - the most conspicuous quality about the home is its simplicity. It's really sort of a hallmark of the home.
Despite the fact that it's disputed, he himself was a family man. He was a man of a tender disposition. The very fact that from '65 to '69, the term of his presidency, he had five grandchildren in the White House and two daughters and, at times, the husbands of those daughters - that alone is proof of his family ties.
He liked young people. He paid a great deal of attention to his grandchildren. That comes directly from his grandson to me.
Sun: So, are you glad that you spent the time that you spent writing the letters and helping on the trips and things like this over the years? Do you feel like that's been a part of your life's work, or is that really a matter of any consequence to you?
Phinney: It's a major point and period and activity of my life. Yes, I'm glad, and especially feel that I didn't ask for it. It just so happened that I was situated where I could lend what service I could - that I had enough training, education, you might say, talent, and so forth.
I'm very happy indeed that I was able to play the part I did.
Phinney added one more anecdote from his family lore...
Phinney: Winding up, he was a very close friend of Ephraim Link.
Sun: You mean President Johnson was?
Phinney: Yes, and Mr. Link had a mill and a store out there in what we call the Link community. So, when the president went to Washington, he continued to get meal and other meal products from Mr. Link.
Sun: You mean he had them sent to Washington?
Phinney: Yes, to the White House.
Sun: Is that that old mill that's still standing out there near Link Hills Country Club?
Phinney: Yes, out near the country club.
Sun: And that was the Ephraim Link Mill from which the meal came to President Johnson in the White House?
Phinney: And, better than that, they took their two family cows with them, and they grazed on the White House lawn. Tell George Bush about that.
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